Michael Hingson shares his incredible story of surviving the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog, Roselle. Michael reflects on how fear can be harnessed as a tool for leadership and resilience, drawing lessons from his own experiences and his partnerships with guide dogs.
Together, Peta and Michael explore the misconceptions around disability and the power of teamwork, trust, and purpose in overcoming life’s challenges.
Connect with Michael:
Email: mike@michaelhingson.com
Connect with Peta:
Instagram: @petahooke
Website: www.icantstandpodcast.com
Email: icantstandpodcast@gmail.com
Episode Transcript:
Peta [00:00:02] Hello and welcome to the I Can't Stand podcast. The podcast answering your questions about what life is like when you have a disability. My name is Peter. I have cerebral palsy and I'm your host this week. I'm absolutely honoured to have Mike Hinkson on the podcast. Mike has an extraordinary story. He was born blind and he experienced 911. His guide dog and himself escaped by guided each other down the many stairs. And his story has always stuck with me. I'm absolutely thrilled to give you this chat. Mike educated me from the moment we turned on the mikes. And I am so grateful. I hope you enjoy this episode. And without any further ado, let's get into it. Could you please introduce yourself?
Michael [00:01:12] Sure. And I want to know why it's called I Can't Stand Podcast, but I am Michael Hingson and I live in the States.
Peta [00:01:20] It's such a pleasure to have you on here, Mike. And the long story short about the podcast is I can't stand because I have cerebral palsy, but I also couldn't stand the fact that people ask me silly questions about disability and there was no way to effectively educate people. I got sick of doing it one by one, so I decided to start a podcast.
Michael [00:01:41] There you go. Well, that works well. I've experienced a lot of those silly requests, silly questions from people, especially the media. It's amazing the things that they ask, but they reflect society and it's very strong misconceptions about blindness and disabilities in general. So I hear what you're saying.
Peta [00:01:59] I always think, unfortunately, neither of us are going to be out of a job anytime soon. No, because as much as we try, there's still a lot for non-disabled people to better understand.
Michael [00:02:11] Well, the reality is, if you want to get very technical about a Peta, everyone on this planet has a disability and for most people their disability is their light dependent. That is to say, put a bunch of people in a room, people with eyesight, and then suddenly have all the power fail so that they're locked or they're lost in that room without any lights. People scramble around to try to find a smartphone or a flashlight or something to get light back on, because in 1878, Thomas Edison invented the electric light bulb, which, as the Americans with Disabilities Act would say, was a reasonable accommodation to allow light dependent people to continue to function. But the fact of the matter is, all it does is it covers up their disability. There is much a disability oriented individual as I. The only difference is that we focus so much on providing light on demand that we cover up that disability. And I didn't include you in that because you have another disability, but you are light dependent too. But we won't hold it against you. But the fact is that we are all people with disabilities and disability should stop being determined to be a lack of ability or an inability. And I my diversity friend, say, well, disability does start with this. So of course it's a lack of ability. And I said, Yeah, well then how do you explain discern disciple and discrete? They start with disease. No disability is a characteristic that everyone in this on this planet has. The only thing about it is that it manifests itself differently for different people. But everyone has a disability.
Peta [00:03:51] And you've just encapsulated in a few minutes of why I love my job and I love doing this podcast because yes, as you say, I'm sitting here with a disability and we have different disabilities. But I didn't I had never thought of that perspective before. And you are so correct.
Michael [00:04:09] Of do you do you use a wheelchair?
Peta [00:04:11] I do, yes. I use an electric wheelchair.
Michael [00:04:13] So my wife, for her whole life used a wheelchair. She was AT3 para. And in 2003 she started using a power chair because as one of her physical medicine doctors said, the body doesn't come with a lifetime warranty and her shoulders were starting to go. So she switched to a power chair. But, you know, again, the disability is a characteristic and everyone on the planet has it, whether you like it or not. It is true.
Peta [00:04:43] And I think your analogy with, you know, reflecting how light dependent we are for those of us who are not vision impaired or blind.
Michael [00:04:52] Really not visually impaired either, because then that's part of the problem. People keep saying, well, you're blind or visually impaired. Excuse me, Visually, I'm not different because I'm blind impaired. I am not, period. It's like you talk to people who are deaf. If you say that they're hearing impaired, they're liable to punch you in the nose and bloody your face because they've learned hearing impaired is not a good way to deal with it. We shouldn't be compared with people who have full hearing so deaf or hard of hearing. And in the case of blind people, blind and low vision. And you know, I don't want to mean to interrupt you too much, but I think it's important that we recognise that words do matter. And the fact that people keep talking about us as being visually impaired only serves to accentuate people's misconceptions.
Peta [00:05:41] And it truly just illustrates that even though I myself are part of the community, I am always open to be educated. And that's why, as I say, I really love my job because we've only been speaking for five minutes and you've opened my eyes and given me a better perspective. So thank you. I have to say, you know, in around the fact you're talking about light dependency. And for those of us who have 20, 20, 20, 20 vision, that really illustrates how how scary it can be. And I think that really illustrates what life with a disability can be like. And I think that's a really great analogy for people listening who maybe don't have a disability to really put themselves in our shoes to be like. I now understand what it's like to feel vulnerable. That was a word I couldn't get before. Vulnerable. I think that's a really powerful message.
Michael [00:06:42] But again, the reality is, is that they don't have our disability, but they need to start to recognise they have their own. And I'm very serious when I say that every person on the planet has a disability and for most people it's light dependence. We need to start to recognise that disability doesn't mean inability or lack of ability. Disability is a characteristic that we all have and it manifests itself differently for different people. It doesn't change the fact that it's there though, and we've got to get people to start to recognise that just because we're different than they, it doesn't mean that we're less than they. I have a master's degree in physics and I doubt there are very many people outside of of fairly advanced physics who could tell you what a spherical ankle function is or a Bessel function, which is a mathematical term as well, or any number of different things. The entities that make them less than me. Well, of course it does, because I know physics and they don't know. It doesn't make them less than me. It is that we all have our gifts and everyone's gifts need to be acknowledged and we need to begin to start to recognise as a planet that just because someone doesn't have some of the same gifts that we do, it doesn't mean that they don't have gifts that are just as important as the ones that we have.
Peta [00:08:07] Have you always been confident in your disabled identity and you as a person?
Michael [00:08:12] I think I've learned a lot since I've been speaking publicly. You know, so as some of your listeners may know and may not know, I worked in the World Trade Centre on September 11th, and I escaped and I was able to escape because of things that I learned that prepared me to deal with an emergency. And yeah, I've been pretty confident about my life in general. My parents were told when I was discovered at my age of four months that I was blind. They were told to send me to a hospital because no blind child could ever do anything and could ever grow up to be anything. And my parents said, You're wrong. We're going to bring him up to do whatever he chooses to do. So I grew up believing that I could do the same kinds of things that that other people could do. But over time I realised, of course I might not do them exactly the same way other people do them. And since the World Trade Centre events, I have been speaking a lot. I've been asked a lot of questions, some good, some totally dumb. But all of those helped me to more realise what I'm like in my own skin and have taught me to help to educate people. And then I started doing my podcast. Unstoppable Mindset Where inclusion, Diversity and the Unexpected Meet. I've learned a lot about myself even just during the time of doing the podcast. But yeah, I think that my parents helped me recognise that I could be comfortable in my skin. But I also need to understand that everyone comes from where they come from. And it's not up to me to judge people just because they don't understand blindness. I will do my best to educate and I may become less tolerant if they're not willing to catch on and recognise that blindness isn't the problem, it's perceptions about people. That's the problem.
Peta [00:10:14] I have to say there's a common theme in my podcasts when I speak to disabled people, regardless of our disability, that parents are really fundamental in forming our identity around disability. And your story is very similar to mine. My parents, regardless of what they were told, like I was told that I would never be able to write my own name, that I would be able to do whatever I wanted in my own capabilities, and they were happy to foster that in me. And I'm so glad that was similar for you, Michael.
Michael [00:10:47] I have seen so many blind people, though, who didn't have that level of support growing up, and they don't have the confidence that they should. Blindness is one of probably the most so-called feared disability. The Gallup Polling Organisation organisation in this country for years, when they surveyed people about their most significant fears, they put blindness as one of the top five fears not disabilities, but blindness because we emphasise eyesight so much. And the reality is that fear is so misplaced, not only about blindness but about disabilities in general. We all again have gifts. We all have things we can do. We all have things that maybe we don't do well. But so what?
Peta [00:11:33] It's very clear that fear is a common theme not only in this conversation, but in your work, Michael. And obviously, fear was a big part of, you know, you living through September 11th, that awful day in human history. How did that event change your perspective on fear and resilience and the meaning of life?
Michael [00:11:57] When I was hired by Quantum Corp. in 1999 to open an office for them, I realised that as the leader of that office, I was going to have to do and be perceived as a leader like anyone else who would be running that office. So I spent time travelling around the World Trade Centre, learning where everything was learning, where offices were learning, where all the kiosks and all the different things on the first floor where the shopping mall at the World Trade Centre was. And I also spent time learning all I could about what to do in the case of an emergency because there had been a bombing in 1993 and it wasn't very significant, but it it caused people to be afraid of being in the World Trade Centre and they only had about an 80% occupancy rate because people had moved out due to the bombing. And so we got a wonderful rate. And so I spent time talking to the police, the Port Authority, fire department, security people and so on, and also learned all I could about the building, what the emergency exits were, how the firefighters functioned and all of that, so that no matter what occurred, I could be the same kind of a leader that other people would do by reading signs. So, for example, if we had someone come into our office to see our products and then maybe they were going to stay in, we were going to have a discussion about signing a contract for them to buy our products. And if we were going to go to lunch, I couldn't say, Well, I'm blind, I don't know how to get anywhere. Someone's going to have to lead me. How would it look two hours later when we're back in the office who were negotiating a multimillion dollar contract? No. I needed to be the one to say. What do you want? Okay, I'll take you. Follow me and do that. What it created in me was a mindset that says, you know what to do in an emergency, you know what to do in different situations and circumstances. And that mindset kicked in on September 11th. So. What it also meant was I had learned how to use fear in a productive, positive way rather than being overwhelmed or, as I put it, blinded by fear. I learned that you can use fear as a powerful tool to help motivate you and direct you and keep you focussed. And that's what happened on September 11th. This year we wrote a book or published a book called Live Like a Guide Dog True Stories from a Blind Man and His Dogs about being brave, overcoming adversity and moving forward in faith. And the issue is that I learned most of what I know about teamwork and trust and other things from having eight guide dogs and my wife's service dog. What we wanted to teach people and what the book is really ultimately about is you can control fear. You don't need to be overwhelmed when something unexpected or horrible happens. You can use that fear to keep you focussed and help you do what you need to do. And there were times going down the stairs that some people on the on the stairs in the World Trade Centre panicked. But a number of us worked really hard to keep people focussed and not panicking. My friend David Frank, who was in my office that day because we were conducting seminars to teach some of our reseller partners how to sell our our products. David lost it at the 50th floor going down and he said, Mike, we're going to die. We're not going to make it out of here. And I just said to David, Stop it, David, if Rossella and I can go down these stairs, so can you. And I snapped at him very deliberately because I wanted him to snap out of whatever was going on with him. He told me that that brought him out of his funk, but he wanted to do something to keep his mind off of what was going on. She said, I'm going to walk a floor below you and tell you what I see. I'll shut up to you. And I said, okay. And so he did. So, for example, when I was at the 45th floor, David said, Hey, Mike, I'm at the 44th floor. This is where the Port Authority cafeteria is not stop and going on down. The reason I mention that is because what David did was he shouted up to me at every floor where he was, what he saw. And the result of that was that he became a focal point for anyone on the stairs who could hear him above him or below him. So again, anyone who could hear him was able to focus and not be quite as afraid because there was someone in the stairs who in reality was sounding okay and that helped them feel better.
Peta [00:16:32] Leadership is so key. And clearly, on that day, it was fundamental for a lot of people to get out of that situation. But of course, a lot of people also didn't. How did your guide dog react to this situation? Obviously, they trained. But, you know, it's it's not something you can train, I presume, a dog to do in this very unusual circumstance, particularly in and around bravery.
Michael [00:17:02] If a dog isn't threatened, then they're not going to face it the same way we are. And nothing threatened. Roselle, as we went down the stairs, she had to sense what was occurring. But I in at the same time kept saying, good dog, Roselle, what a good dog. Keep going. What a good dog. Let's go down the stairs. Keep going. Good girl. I worked really hard to keep her focussed by just saying to her that she was doing a good job. And the purpose for that was in part to keep her focussed and to let her know because she had a sense that people were afraid. But to let her know that I was okay. The purpose of a guide dog is to guide, not lead. So it's not the dog's job to know where to go and how to get there. The dog's job is to make sure that we walk safely. But I have to know where to go and how to get there. And I have to be the team leader. And in the situation of going down those stairs. Part of my job as a leader was to encourage my team-mate and make sure that she didn't feel that I was feeling endangered or fearful or panicking in any way. So that was also part of why I was able to focus so much on going down the stairs. And keep in mind. Then we got outside and we were very close to Tower two when it collapsed. And again, nothing really threatened her, but I kept telling her to to hop up or speed up and run as we as we did. But the reality is that what you need to understand is that dogs don't approach all of this the way we do. When we got home that night. The first thing I did when we got home was I took off Rosetta's harness and I was going to take her out, but she would have none of it. She jerked away and she ran over, grabbed her favourite tug boat and started playing tug of war with my retired guide dog, Lenny. Because dogs don't do. What if it was over for Roselle? She knew it was over. Nothing threatened her or injured her. So it was done. We wait for everything in the world and we worry about everything in the world. And the reality is only a fraction of that is some are things that we have control over. And one of my mantras that I learned in and around the World Trade Centre and then I talked about afterward is don't worry about what you can’t control. Just focus on what you can and let the rest take care of itself because you're not going to be able to influence it anyway. So focus on what you can and stop being so fearful about everything else. And we need to. Control our lives and work in our lives, teaching ourselves things and not being critical, but rather being willing to learn. And I think that that's important to do. And if more people would do that and spend time, at the end of the day really analysing what happened and why was I afraid of that? What can I learn? You'll you'll develop your mind muscle and become a lot better at learning to control that fear that we all talk about.
Peta [00:20:01] And as far as your partnership with your guide dogs, what have you learned, particularly since writing your first book in and around your partnership with your guide dogs? Have you explored how each relationship is different? Talk to me about that.
Michael [00:20:17] Dogs do love unconditionally, but they don't trust unconditionally. I think I instinctively knew that. But again, learning about it while writing Thunder Dog and so on helps because I've learned to articulate some of those things more than I used to. And I think it's an important skill to have. I think it's important to have been able to do that. It helps me appreciate the team more and it helps me appreciate the work that they do. And by showing that appreciation, I hope that they recognise and appreciate me better for what I do. They want to please. They want a team leader and I need to be the team leader of our team. But we are a team together and that's important to know.
Peta [00:21:02] And do you feel that your relationship as you've gotten older has become stronger with each dog as you've honed your skill in leadership?
Michael [00:21:11] I think it has. It's helped me understand it more. And the more that I understand it and the more I think about it. Yeah, certainly that helps.
Peta [00:21:19] I'm going to take a moment to ask your personal question. My beloved dog, Holly passed away in April, and I've never experienced grief to this level. Now, that's obviously a very privileged statement to a point, but I miss him deeply every day. Talk to me about your process of grief when your guide dog passes away. Given the importance of this relationship, I imagine it's extremely difficult for you. Is it?
Michael [00:21:46] Well, yes and no. There are a lot of guide dog users who would yell at me for putting it this way, but I'm going to when I realise that a dog needs to retire, it's because they're not performing as well. They may not be seeing as well at night. They may be slowing down any number of different things. My job as the team leader is to be responsible for my team-mate. And when something happens to my team-mate or if my team-mate is stressed, I need to figure it out. So whenever one of my guide dogs has to retire, it's because I've made the decision that that's the best decision for the dog and the best decision for our team. When I can, I always keep the dog and when they pass away, yeah, there is grief. But I also know that we had a great relationship together. And so I approach always the process by thinking of it in terms of of a team and the team process. I've lost several cats. We've lost several guide dogs along the way and so on. But the fact of the matter is that no dog replaces a previous dog. No pet replaces a previous pet. What they do is that they fill new spots in our hearts.
Peta [00:23:06] Do you relive the sounds of 911.
Michael [00:23:11] Sure. But I don't do so in a negative way. I had no control over the World Trade Centre happening. You have no control over having cerebral palsy. The issue is, however, you do have control and I had control over how we deal with what happens to us. And that's the important part. And so I chose to allow myself to be interviewed by the media. I chose to go into a career of public speaking, telling my story. And now, of course, it's a little bit different because I tell my story to a new generation that doesn't even remember September 11th. So my job is to tell the story in a way that draws them in so that they actually feel that they were there. And people tell me that all the time. From your story, we were there with you as you were going down the stairs. But it's important to do that. So I don't relive any of it in fear. I relive it every time I tell the story. And I think about it a lot, but not in a fearful or negative way. I always think about it in terms of what am I learned? What else is there to learn? It happened. How can I use my experiences to help other people? And that's what I want to do.
Peta [00:24:29] And do you feel or did you feel when you were originally writing your first book, The Underdog? Was it a way of preserving that and making sure people did remember and understand this underdog?
Michael [00:24:41] Yes. It tells the story of the World Trade Centre, but it also talks about my life because every chapter starts out with something from September 11th chronologically going through the day. Then we transition back to things that I learned in my life that helped with that particular thing. And then we come back at the end of the chapter to continue the September 11th story. And the idea is to teach people something. It isn't just telling the September 11th story. I want them to learn about blindness. I want them to learn about blind people. I want them to learn more about themselves. And then when the pandemic began, I realised that I've been talking as a public speaker for that time, 19 years, about what happened to me. But what I've not been doing is talking to anyone about how they could learn to control fear. Like I learned to control fear. And so we decided to write the book. And it's teaching people that they have the ability to control fear and not let it overwhelm or, as I said, blind them. Now, I have another another book that we wrote kind of in the middle called Running with Roselle, which was intended for children. The story of me growing up, the story of Roselle growing up and how we met. But more adults buy a thing kits, and it's available through Amazon.
Peta [00:25:59] My final question I'm really keen to ask you, Firstly, are you scared of anything, Michael, and what does it mean to you to be fearless?
Michael [00:26:10] I'm not fearless, but I've learned to focus fear. I will never say that I am fearless. And though there are a lot of things that get scary, I've been in towns and gotten lost. I went to Israel last year for a week. And I didn't speak Hebrew and I didn't really know anyone in the town. And I took a cab back one evening from accessories headquarters to my hotel. And the driver, rather than letting me off in front of the hotel, let me off on the side at the parking lot entrance to the hotel, which I had never visited before. And I was really concerned about what I'm going to do to be able to figure out where I am and how to get to my hotel, because I didn't even know that he left, whether he let me off in front of the hotel or not. But I focussed and I went, Let's just go to a street corner and see what happens. And I went to a street corner and heard people talking and I went over and they were speaking in English. So I asked them and it turns out I was right in front of the hotel. But, you know, things happen. And I've learned that you can focus and you don't have to let all of this overwhelm you. It was a little bit scary, but we did okay. And I made it back to the hotel and and I was good and had a good dinner.
Peta [00:27:30] Thank you for listening to this week's episode. I hope you enjoyed it. If you did. Can I ask you to leave a writing your review on Apple or Spotify? Share the show with friend on social media. It helps more people find the podcast. You can always follow me over on Instagram. My handle is at Peter Hook, or you can send me an email. I can't stand podcast I. Jim McComb Thank you so much, Mike, for coming on the podcast. I really appreciate it and thank you for what you do for the community. Until next week. Have a good one, guys. Bye. I would like to respectfully acknowledge the Wurundjeri people and Bunurong people of the Kulin Nation of which I recalled the podcast today. And I pay my respects to both elders past and present, along with and especially to those in the First Nations communities who are disabled themselves.
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